Creation Story – Literal or Figurative

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Should the Biblical creation story be viewed as literal or figurative?

According to the dictionary, if something is literal it is completely true and accurate.  If the story is figurative, then it departs from a  literal use of words.  It is symbolic or could be considered an allegory.

There are sections of the Bible that are not viewed as being literal.  These sections are seen as poetry, parables, or allegorical stories.

My question, is why is the creation story seen as a literal account?

 

127 thoughts on “Creation Story – Literal or Figurative

  1. It is only taken as literal by fundamentalists. There is so much evidence against it already in the Bible, but also in historical records and science. Also bear in mind that even the English Bibles are idiomatic translations. Creation was written in the present, indicating a dynamic process yet Bibles erroneously state it to be stagnant, in the past. Elohim also is just assumed to be God while the world literally means “family of god” also used for other spiritual beings. Somehow, fundamentalists choose not to take this literal, so their own model of understanding lacks integrity. There is more to Genesis than meets the eye.

    Liked by 2 people

      • Red Sea is relatively young due to continental drift. There are many unique species of marine life, not found elsewhere. Who made them and when? This is just one example. Then, the family of god (alien beings) that had mated with terrestrial women to produce giants. They were also called……elohim! Now ask the Dogon people of Mali where West Africans came from. Or ask the Zulu sanusi (shaman) Credo Mutwa, where black people came from. Credo is still alive, as far as I know, but it is in his books. What Credo Mutwa and the Dogons say, thousands of miles apart, tie in with other African oral traditions and with the Bible, if only one reads with eyes wide open.

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  2. Hey Lynn

    Interesting question, and I am going to chime in! I am one of those “fundamentalists” First, I’m not here to debate any one one your blog, nor will I.

    I happen to believe creation happened just as described in Genesis. Allow me to add some thoughts. Let me say first that I understand the reality of what seems to be compelling evidence from history and science that this account can only be figurative. Again, that’s an entire other subject. Being the fundamentalist that I am, I would simply state I believe God’s Word trumps.

    Why does a literal creation matter? Some thoughts.

    We we rule out a literal creation as just not possible we imply that God really couldn’t do all that. Well, if He could not speak the worlds into existence, then he is not much of a God.

    Genesis 2:7 tells us God formed us with His own hands and personally breathed life into us. We were created in His image. Frankly, the entire evolutionary model, while seemingly compelling, destroys the very thought that humankind is in God’s image. The implications of evolving into God’s image are outstanding. That would imply that somehow we are, over time, able to become more God like and in His image. That would be no more than us working our way to salvation, by works. Toss grace out of the window. We didn’t evolve into God’s image, He created us that way.

    If there was no literal creation, and no literal garden, and no literal Adam and Eve…then there is….nothing. No Adam and Eve…….no fall into sin…..then no sin. No sin problem, then no need for Jesus, because if we aren’t sinners no need to any payment to be made. Frankly, Lynn, without a literal creation, then the entire rest of the narrative unravels as well.

    Then we roll right back into we don’t need God, we don’t need Jesus. We just need to work hard and eventually we will evolve and change into something better.

    It may seem at times that the literal account of Genesis is very hard to believe, but I maintain that it is a vital part of the entire Word of God upon which our faith is built.

    Thanks for the chance to comment and the question

    Liked by 6 people

    • If there was no literal creation, and no literal garden, and no literal Adam and Eve…then there is….nothing. No Adam and Eve…….no fall into sin…..then no sin. No sin problem, then no need for Jesus, because if we aren’t sinners no need to any payment to be made. Frankly, Lynn, without a literal creation, then the entire rest of the narrative unravels as well.

      Exactly!! ., Wally. YOu nailed it

      It is a complete crock. and science has already shown us the truth. If nothing else, based on the Human Gene Project.

      So what the Hell are you still doing believing in a Bronze-Age fairy tale very likely written in the 10th century bce?

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    • So wally, the best you can come up with is… if it didn’t happen my faith is falsely founded, so it simply must be true?
      Wishing it true so you won’t be disappointed by reality is not a reason to believe it actually is true.
      -kia

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      • “Wishing it true so you won’t be disappointed by reality is not a reason to believe it actually is ”

        That is a falsehood and misrepresentation of my position. I accept it as true for one reason. Of course you scoff and ridicule that reason, but it is my reason.

        God wrote it. Good enough for me.

        Peace Mike, as I won’t turn Lynn’s blog into a garbage pit of entertainment for you.

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      • Mike i feel no shame or embarrassment that my belief is cemented by faith. After all without it…it is impossible to please Him.

        Like anyone I weigh the evidence available to me and react as I will. Indeed faith is critical and I feel absolutely no shame for that

        Peace

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      • My point was… the despair in finding out it isn’t true is not a good argument that it is. And very poor basis for such a faith. It’s just blind fear.

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      • Well Mike at the risk of sounding argumentative that is simply the most disjointed nonsensical response that could be made

        I am describing my faith and mine alone. It seems your are trying to tell me and the others here how I came to my faith and what I base it on

        You are not me…so its rather presumptuous for you to say

        What you are expressing is your opinion of faith in general, which has no bearing on my own journey there

        I am fairly certain I know far better how I arrived at faith than you do

        I do appreciate your efforts to clear me up though

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      • Well Mike at the risk of sounding argumentative that is simply the most disjointed nonsensical response that could be made

        I am describing my faith and mine alone. It seems your are trying to tell me and the others here how I came to my faith and what I base it on

        You are not me…so its rather presumptuous for you to say

        What you are expressing is your opinion of faith in generak

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  3. Lynn, excellent question. My personal opinion is that it is a little of both. Literal and allegorical. But that is just my gut feeling.

    The truth is, none of us know. Faith and opinion aside; none of us know. If we choose to, we learn more and more, but some things will remain unknown for now. With that being said, I am a believer in these words:

    “For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.

    Liked by 4 people

  4. There is nothing literal about it whatsoever. In fact,. the entire Pentateuch is regarded as Historical Fiction by biblical scholars. ( Not fundamentalists, these are not scholars)

    First, it has more than one author and there are two creation accounts. What happened? Did Yahweh just chuck in a second version for the Hell oops…. that isn’t real either … heck of it? 🙂

    Second. It was written by Jews for Jews was never intended to be taken literally and equally as important,was never meant for fundamentalist christian half wits who hadn’t been ”invented” and from a Jewish point of view were never expected to be either!

    There are many sites that give excellent historical data regarding its content and composition.

    Also, the Human Genome Project has produced evidence showing beyond doubt humanity did not derive form a single couple, (even taking into consideration Mitochondrial ”Eve”) as depicted in the Bible,

    To be be blunt, one would have to be a bit soft in the head to consider there is any veracity to the the creation myth found in the bible.

    Nice post ., Lynn.

    🙂

    Liked by 1 person

  5. My question, is why is the creation story seen as a literal account?

    Only by fundamentalists like Wally. Normal people accept it is nothing but a (poor) piece of fiction.
    And they have been indoctrinated into accepting it as literal for all the reasons Wally listed.

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    • @dawnmarie

      From Heiser’s PDF

      I believe the Bible is the product (equally) of both God and human beings).

      -Michael Heiser-

      The above comment tells you all you need to know about Heiser and his view and thus can be discounted simply because he inserts ” Faith ” into the equation.

      Liked by 1 person

      • dawnmarie says:

        And? Are we not talking about something taken by faith? The question was not do you believe, it was why do people take Genesis literally.

        Do you not take on faith that your science? Believe what the people in authority tell you? Have you not been indoctrinated? Did you get your flu vaccine for example? Don’t we all things that we take on faith?

        Despite the many flaws and lies perpetuated in the name of whatever our faith is? How is your own truth any different than those who believe in a creator?

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      • And? Are we not talking about something taken by faith?

        Yes, but it shouldn’t be as it is nonsense to do so or to preach or teach such idiocy. And yes, I am aware Lynn’s question was why is the creation account seen as literal?

        No, I do not believe in science based upon faith, but rather evidence.
        Is there any other way to believe?

        Believe what the people in authority tell you?

        At face value? Certainly not. Surely you don’t either?

        Have you not been indoctrinated?

        Only in the belief that Liverpool are the best soccer team in the world. Difficult to shrug off this belief, but I am not going to Hell for it, thank the gods, contrary to what Manchester United fans say.

        Did you get your flu vaccine for example?

        No. Never had a flu shot in my life. Don’t actually consider they are that effective.

        Don’t we all things that we take on faith?

        Not in the religious sense. Faith as in acceptance of something should be based on evidence.
        As in: The stove is hot and you will burn your hand. Oh yeah? Watch this! Oops.

        Despite the many flaws and lies perpetuated in the name of whatever our faith is? How is your own truth any different than those who believe in a creator?
        Because my truth is based on evidence.and where there is doubt or uncertainty then it is wise to hold judgment in abeyance.
        If you have evidence for a creator feel free to present it.
        If you are basing this faith/belief on the erroneous text of the bible, then you have all your work ahead of you.

        Heiser is suggesting God apparently dumbed-down the Creation explanation to humans when he ”transmitted” the bible, or this is certainly the impression he gives to me.on skim -reading the link.

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      • dawnmarie says:

        How many randomized, double blind, placebo controlled trials do you find yourself reading…just to make sure that science is right? Have you checked all the calculations and made yourself an expert in number of scientific fields? So you can double check to see for yourself if what we are taught is true. Don’t bother, it changes all the time. Btw, I don’t do flu shots either. I read the studies.

        We are all indoctrinated since the day we enter this world. None of our thoughts are our own. They are influenced by experience. Our will and beliefs are bound by what we know based on what we have lived and experienced.

        No, I don’t take anything at face value. Ignorance is bliss…but sometimes it is hard to stay ignorant unfortunately.

        Faith by definition is belief in things not seen…yet, faith can be strengthened by evidence.

        Ah..but your truth is not based on evidence. Human truth is what you believe is based on evidence.

        Evidence for a creator is all around us and I take that by faith. I can not prove that the Fibonacci sequence in the sunflower didn’t just come forth from a primordial ooze but I know, by faith that it did not.

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      • Fine.Then first I suggest you go read the findings of the Human Genome Project and that should set you straight re: the nonsense of Adam and Eve.
        If you want a brief overview I can recommend Jerry Coyne’s site/blog, Evolution is true.and can provide a l;\ink if you are seriously interested in the evidence? Let me know.

        Then you could do a bit of research on Yahweh and the Ugaritic Texts.
        After that, Finkelstein, Dever, or Herzog ( or any well known secular archaeologist) on the Exodus, especially Kadesh Barnea and the internal settlement pattern of Palestine (Canaan). Kenyon on Jerusalem and the carbon dating, and if you are still not convinced then you could try to answer why the biggest failure in the history of Prayer can be attributed to the character, Jesus of Nazareth. (John 17:21).

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      • dawnmarie says:

        Why? Probably the only thing on that list that interests me is the Ugaritic stuff since that is ancient near east literature and really helps to understand how an ancient Hebrew might interpret things. Cultural context and stuff like that. That is what Heiser’s work is in. Very interesting stuff.

        As far as the rest…What does it matter? My faith in a creator and a savior does not hinge on whether Adam and Eve were literal, though I believe they were but it wouldn’t matter to me. My faith doesn’t even depend on how much of the Bible has been manipulated by men…and it has. Everything in this world has been manipulated and changed by men. You can’t trust history, you can’t trust science, you can’t trust anything really. My faith however is something I can’t describe, nor explain why I have it. It is just there. I get lied to and lied to, but my faith grows stronger. Strange. I can’t prove it to you or anyone else but reading up on those things you mention wouldn’t change it. It might change my faith in men which is sorely lacking anyway, but not in The Father or His Son or His Spirit. Humans have a spiritual nature and we seek for answers as to why we are here, what is truth..that kind of stuff. The answer to those questions by faith are simply, fear God and keep His commandments…love the Lord your God and love your neighbor. That is all I can figure at this time.

        Neither of us are going to convince each other of our respective personal beliefs, but the key is to respect each persons personal belief if they are not trying to cram it down your throat. I don’t do that….try to cram my beliefs down people’s throats I mean. I believe the Spirit teaches all things and the Spirit changes minds. Not me. That, I believe by faith.

        Liked by 3 people

      • Faith is fine. Just as long as you accept it isn’t evidence.
        But you are free to believe whatever you like. This is your right.

        Just as long as you extend this right to others and you do not proselytize this as fact to children and allow them to make their own choice as adults, as I presume you have done, then there is no problem.

        Liked by 1 person

      • dawnmarie says:

        It goes both ways. I think that is something that can be hard to remember, but if a child asks about God, I will tell them what I know just like if a child asked you about God, you would tell them what you know. I think people in general proselytize but we forget that it doesn’t just include things of a spiritual nature. It includes everything we teach people whether it be in a formal setting or just in daily conversation, secular, religious or otherwise. Censorship in any of those realms would be a shame. What I have a problem with is people trying to beat others in to submission, calling people names, ad hominem attacks etc. based on disagreement. Clearly wrong.

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      • dawnmarie says:

        Not true. If I didn’t know it to be true I would not believe it right? Why would I tell someone something I wasn’t sure was true? I clearly see the evidence all around me. You don’t, so your answer would obviously be different. But you also take on faith that Yahweh does NOT exist. You have the same evidence to look at as I do and you interpret it differently and it is what it is. So let it be. My answer to a child who asked me about God would be, Yes there is a God in heaven and He is amazing. Do you want to know more about Him? I would tell them about Adam and Eve and Noah and the flood and Giants and Egypt and Jesus and all kinds of stuff. I would. And if they asked me if that is true, I would say yup.

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      • No. You may believe it is true but you do not necessarily know it is true.

        Unless, of course you can demonstrate this with evidence?

        For example, you are on record stating you believe Adam and Eve are genuine historical characters.

        Science has disproved this claim so while you may maintain this belief you cannot say you know they were real people.
        Such a claim is fallacious.

        Whereas, I could produce evidence to a child demonstrating why Adam and Eve were not real and the biblical tale is simply part of a Jewish Foundation myth.
        I know the god Yahweh is simply a man-made deity because we have textual evidence that demonstrates he was. Also he was a Canaanite deity who the Israelites adopted, did away with his consort and then elevated him above the other gods, establishing a form of monotheism. There is evidence to back this up.
        I do not claim there is no Creator Deity. Howe could I make such a bold assertion? I am not that arrogant.
        I only state I do not believe in one as the evidence produced so far does not incline me to accept such a claim and thus, like all god claims to date, can be summarily dismissed.

        If you make such truth claims to kids based on your ”faith” and not evidence then this amounts to child abuse as you also believe that, failure to accept the character Jesus of Nazareth as being your god will result in eternal damnation and torture in ”Hell”.

        Liked by 1 person

      • dawnmarie says:

        I completely understand your argument. It makes absolute and perfect sense. The thing is, I believe with my whole being these things to be true. However, just because I know these things to be true does not mean anyone has to believe me. How can I worship and love a God that I don’t even know exists? Seems insincere and a waste of time right? And seems that God would know that I didn’t really believe anyway which means why even fake it?

        Liked by 1 person

      • dawnmarie says:

        Not child abuse. If that were true, then pretty much bringing a child into the world amounts to child abuse because they will be exposed to much worse than the idea of a God who loves them.

        Liked by 1 person

      • dawnmarie says:

        However, if I hit that kid and screamed and yelled at them and told them they had to convert or die…yes, that is child abuse. Gross.

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      • Again, belief that is not backed by evidence is not ”knowing,” it is simply belief.
        And I am sorry, but you can stand on your head and declare your undying love for your god ’til the cows come home, the evidence refutes every single foundational christian claim you make . Every one. From top to bottom.
        In any other arena such belief might very well be declared a form of mental instability or at the very least, delusional but sadly, religion gets a Free Pass.

        Based on the evidence you can confidently declare the moon is not made of cheese. Neither does the sun go round the earth.
        So why do you reject the unassailable evidence from science and archaeology pertaining to your religion?
        Please tell me what you know about the Human Genome Project that hundreds of scientists have missed?
        Explain the supposed errors you consider validate a single human couple, Adam and Eve as per biblical specs.
        What can you tell me that you know about the Exodus story that every single genuine archaeologist has overlooked, not least the complete lack of evidence at Kadesh Barnea where the Israelite supposedly spent around 30 years?
        What evidence do you have that supports Joshua’s genocidal campaign of Canaan?
        What makes you consider you understand more about the Pentateuch
        than all the highly qualified Jewish scholars and Rabbis who have more to lose in a dozen lifetimes than you can possibly imagine, yet they have acknowledged there is no evidence to support the historicity of the biblical tale.
        What gives you the right to dismiss these people; hundreds and hundreds of men and women who have devoted their lives to uncover the scientific and archaeological and scholarly truth?
        With all due respect can you not see just how flagrantly arrogant your claims are?

        You probably do not believe Mohamed went to heaven on a winged horse, but Muslims do and they believe with exactly the same conviction as you do about the claims made for Adam and Eve Moses and your Lake Tiberius Pedestrian.

        Again , that you believe is your choice.
        That you may wish to impart this palpable nonsense on to children with the heinous proviso that if they do not believe<they will be tortured in hell for eternity is somewhat sick and , quite frankly tantamount to child abuse.

        Please bear in mind that George W Bush went to war claiming his god spoke to him.
        Imagine if your kid was drafted into such a war because of this and died as a result, how would you feel ?

        Liked by 1 person

      • dawnmarie says:

        As you tell me these things, I can’t help but think….do you know? Everything you just told me is based on your belief that people are not lying to you or giving you nothing more than their opinion. You take their word by faith…enough that you are willing to call others delusional. Did you go to the moon? Were you there at creation? What of that pesky Van Allen belt that we say we can’t get around…and then we conveniently forget that and tell people we went to the moon in a tin cup? Why was the video of the moon visit recorded over? Do you know? Tell me why the pictures of the earth ( what few there are) are perfectly round, yet science now says the earth looks more like a wadded up piece of bubble gum? Which is it?

        Tell me about the fake pieces of archaeology claiming to be different species in the line of humans….that have been exposed as fraud. Tell me about that diagram that shows that a fetus looks like a chicken fish and frog before it looks human…that was fake too btw but it sure got used for its purposes before people admitted it was fake. People want so bad to make a name for themselves.

        There is also something called revisionist history? People rewrite history all the time. Which histories should we believe? Tell me if you know. Is it really 2016 or maybe it is just 1016? Hmmm….so hard to tell…better just believe what we are told. Easier that way right?

        Do I think I know better than a Jewish scholar…absolutely. If they deny the Christ, absolutely by faith I do and I have many Christian scholars that would agree with me as well. Do I know better than scientists…a scientist is only as good as his methods and the stats he uses to prove them. He is also only as good as his ethics…I have no idea what scientist faked his data to get tenure, or to keep his job., get government grants, corporate grants or just make a name for himself. I have no idea what lies the media will be allowed to put out on scientific discoveries to mold people’s minds. Seems to me like there are lots of agendas that science is more than happy to take part in.

        As far as human genome project…how do you know that men have interpreted the first two chapters in Genesis right? It could be two creation stories. One where mankind is created to take care of the whole world, and one where God makes himself a personal gardner in Adam. God could have made many sets of different people in Genesis 1. We don’t know that He didn’t. The scripture focuses on the blood line of people that His Son was born to. And the people specifically mentioned in Genesis 2. That is why the human genome project does not bother me one bit and I don’t care.

        I think it is funny to listen to archaeologists weave stories about things they know nothing about and then present it as fact. I think it is funny that certain men think they can tell me what happened 500 years ago, much less millions of years ago. Wonder what scientists will say about the mount Saint Helen’s area in 200 years if they use it to date the age of the earth? They go by layers and when that volcano erupted, lots of layers were layed down giving the fake idea of added age.

        The Bible is written in the context of those people who lived at the time and tells the history of those people. It reflected the culture of the day and the point of it all is that God is the God…all other gods are created beings. Salvation is by Yahweh. It isn’t like believing in a creator is a brand new thing…which in your opinion seems to make anyone who has ever believed in a creator whose name is Yahweh, delusional. Have you died and come back to tell us the real scoop? How can one with no faith understand those who do have it and judge them for something he knows nothing about WHILE at the same time by faith assuming that everything he knows is truth? Makes no sense. It is hypocritical for you to think you know while you call others delusional for taking things by faith. As I have pointed out, you only know what you know because someone told you and you believe them..by faith. You have not seen the evidence you throw out yourself, yet you want me to believe it. You are only repeating what you have heard and choose to believe. I am willing to admit that what I know is based on faith and what I believe (not know) is based on my human understanding. I am always amused at how easily people forgive science when it fails…and so quick to assume the scriptures are wrong when science says so. I have no problem incorporating true scientific discoveries into my understanding of scripture…but give me something true, unbiased and proveable. Don’t give me corporately funded science meant to make a profit. Been there, done that…walked away.

        Liked by 1 person

      • As you tell me these things, I can’t help but think….do you know? Everything you just told me is based on your belief that people are not lying to you or giving you nothing more than their opinion. You take their word by faith… enough that you are willing to call others delusional. Did you go to the moon? Were you there at creation?

        Wrong. Science does not work this way. And for similar reasons an aircraft is not allowed to fly solely on the say-so of the person/designer who claims it would.
        That you would now indulge in such Ken Ham style nonsense as ‘’was I there at creation?’’ or ‘’did I go to the moon?’’ merely highlights your unwillingness to accept evidence that refutes your faith and your inability/unwillingness to even try to offer a single refutation of what archaeology and science has demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt.
        Are you also going to claim there was a person called Noah and a global flood and that there really was a character called Moses in the face of those whose foundational history these purportedly reflect who have, by and large rejected all of it as mythological based on overwhelming evidence

        Do I think I know better than a Jewish scholar…absolutely. If they deny the Christ, absolutely by faith I do and I have many Christian scholars that would agree with me as well.

        Unfortunately, with this statement you are now simply making a fool of yourself, I’m afraid and I imagine most of those reading/following along will likely cringe at such an arrogant statement which is little more than a sign of indoctrination. And you compound your ignorance with further statements pertaining to the HGP and the nonsense of a ‘’bloodline.’’
        While I do feel a modicum of pity for the indoctrination you have suffered, I would genuinely hope you would take time to do some genuine investigative research and furthermore, that you are unable to indoctrinate children with this nonsense, especially as you no doubt believe in a literal Hell.

        Liked by 1 person

      • dawnmarie says:

        You keep believing what you believe. And call me a fool, a child abuser, delusional, a believer of idiocy and whatever else you can come up with. It does not hurt my feelings. Btw…Ken Ham is not God and is fallible like every other human. The problem I see with programs such as Ken Hams is that they try too hard to defend God and in doing so, make things dogmatic that are not. God does not need human defense. That is what happens when men and their ideas get involved. For me, I want to live quietly, work with my own hands, be kind to others and take care of my family. I want to be loyal to my creator. That is it. I have no desire to convert others, I have no desire to perpetuate religion and I have no desire to convince you that I am right. You started this conversation so I am merely being considerate by responding to you despite the name calling and hypocrisy. As the Book of Revelation says let the righteous continue being righteous…let the wicked continue being wicked. That is my motto. Everything gets taken care of in the end and every knee will bow…believe it or…not.

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      • dawnmarie says:

        Btw, you do know based on logical fallacy, that using the example of a child over and over is only an effort to emotionally pull people into your way of thinking right? It’s for the kids!!!! Appeal to emotion….then of course, add the ad hominem attacks. Unfortunately, that kind of rhetoric is effective. The media does it all the time.

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      • No, I said if you indoctrinate children with the belief that if one does not accept that the character Jesus of Nazareth is god one will spend eternity in Hell and only if you teach this to children it should be regarded as child abuse.

        You keep using the term ”God” as if it is a proper noun – it is not.
        There are a great many gods, and a great many of these are also considered creator deities.

        The name of your god is Yahweh. He is a man-made Judaeo/Christian deity who was formerly a Canaanite deity before being adopted by the Israelites.

        I accept you have no desire to convert others and have stressed it is your right as an adult to believe what ever you wish.
        What hypocrisy?

        And now you reference the Book of Revelations as if this too has any factual basis.
        You may as well quote Harry otter for it has similar value from the point of view of veracity.
        Are you aware of the history of this ”book?”.
        A very interesting history to say the least.

        Liked by 1 person

      • dawnmarie says:

        Yes, you called me a child abuser. I fall into your child abusing category. Hypocrisy because you live your life based on faith that what you are being told is true, yet belittle those who admit their their faith in unseen spiritual matters is just that…faith. You won’t admit it. The difference is that I recognize that we all are indoctrinated and brainwashed and deceived and lied to but you don’t seem to see it. I must say, I did quote Revelation just to see how you would respond to it. Gosh that book of revelation…is it chronological, recapitulated, literal, allegorical, already done, coming future, a story of time from when Christ rose from the dead until the end…who knows. I was purposely trying to get a rise. That wasn’t nice. I apologize.

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      • No, I live my life based on the knowledge that what I believe has by and large, been tested and verified by science.Yes there will be mistakes. We are human.
        Where there is no fixed position I hold judgment in abeyance.
        I have said the same about a creator: that the evidence presented so far for a creator can be dismissed with impunity.
        When further evidence surfaces maybe I shall reconsider my position.

        I am not belittling you. That is only something you can feel yourself. I have stressed that as an adultyou are entitled to believe whatever you want and would hope you would expect the same degree of respect to others, and most especially children.
        To teach them they are born in sin and will burn in Hell for eternity for not believing that the character Jesus of Nazareth is god is tantamount to child abuse. I make no apologies for this statement if you teach this heinous doctrine to children.

        You didn’t get a rise and there is no need to apologize. I was more concerned that you believe this spurious nonsense.

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      • dawnmarie says:

        God, as in Yahweh is a proper noun. There are many gods, you known, Elohim…divine beings…immortal beings with free will. God gave 70 or so of them rule over the nations in the beginning, I BELIEVE..I do not KNOW. The nations decided to worship them as God and they still do today. God is an Eloheim in that He is divine, immortal, not of this material world, but not all Eloheim are God, as in big G God, Yahweh, THE God…uncaused, uncreated, eternal God, most Eloheim, save God, are created by God for whatever reason. Have you ever read stuff about the divine council? Fascinating!!!! Really, it is…even if you want to read it so you can pity and debate us poor deluded child abusing Christians fools…you should. You will have lots of fun…promise. Mike Heiser again. Michael Heiser has some very thought provoking divine council work.

        Like

      • Yahweh is a proper noun. God is not.
        That you would now indulge in self -effacing rhetoric is unfortunate and it comes across as whining.

        No I have not read anything pertaining to a divine council.
        I do not subscribe to a theological worldview based on erroneous religious text.

        Liked by 1 person

      • dawnmarie says:

        I don’t believe in convert or die and I think GW was a hole. I myself am a passivist. I just saw your George Bush comment. These conversation responses are long and I missed that part. Sorry.

        Liked by 2 people

      • dawnmarie says:

        I absolutely believe in a literal hell, but I have no idea what it is. Is it eternal separation from God? Or is it complete annihilation of the soul. Is it torment as the bible says or torture as people like to describe. Those are very different terms. There are tons of opinions on what God meant that don’t matter at all. God knows what He meant and whatever it is, I want no part in it. Fire is a symbol for judgement…could it be eternal judgment and consequences for the deeds done in this life as we as humans send people to prison as each are judged according to their deeds with different levels of prison for different levels of deeds? Maybe. Who knows. The bible doesn’t speak all that much about it in detail. It basically gives a picture of a place I don’t want to be. That place was created for the angels who disobeyed…the same ones who pose as gods but unfortunately, some people want to be with their gods even if that means being in that place or denying it even exists. Would I be upset if there was no hell and everyone went to heaven because God is merciful and extends His grace to all humanity wrong as they might be? Not at all. It would confirm that God’s ways are not my ways and His thoughts are not my thoughts. I would be overjoyed! But the bible is pretty clear that those who don’t believe (in other words, those not loyal to Yahweh) (and God knows who believes vs who is just giving themselves fire insurance) won’t be with Him.

        Like

      • I absolutely believe in a literal hell, but I have no idea what it is. Is it eternal separation from God? Or is it complete annihilation of the soul. Is it torment as the bible says or torture as people like to describe.

        The term Hell does not feature in the original language of the bible, Old or New.
        The term Jesus used in the bible was Gehenna and this referred to the Vale of Hinnon outside Jerusalem where rubbish was dumped and burned. It is also believed that in times past child sacrifice was also carried out here.
        Jesus was a Jew and he taught the Law. The Christian version of Hell does not feature in Judaism and never did and thus would never have been taught. The notion of eternal torture is a Christian construct.
        I am more than happy to provide links to demonstrate this point or would you prefer to research yourself?

        Liked by 1 person

      • dawnmarie says:

        Yes, a trash dump filled with rot and death. Correct. The Jews did have developed ideas about death and the underworld and Jesus gave a parable about that underworld when he spoke of the poor sick man who died and was comforted in the bosom of Abraham while the rich man was on the other side just wished for a drink to cool his tongue and wanted to come back from the dead to warn his brothers. The OT talks about Sheol opening its mouth…the place of the dead. Ancient people in general had developed beliefs about hell or the afterlife. The outer darkness is another term, the grave, death, the pit, Sheol…

        Like

      • Yes, but Sheol was not eternal and did not involve torture; well, definitely not the type certain Christians poison the minds of children with.
        I reiterate, the Christian version of Hell is pernicious and is simply false.
        Maybe this will open your eyes a little.
        And remember, people like Wally believe this. Is this the type of parent you believe we should strive to be?

        Liked by 1 person

      • dawnmarie says:

        What is wrong with Wally? I don’t know Wally and couldn’t say.

        Death was eternal. You wanna call Sheol a holding place, fine. I agree with that. I have no idea what hell is like. Point is, a place that can only be entered through by death where God is not. From what I can understand and believe, death and hades are destroyed in the end as well and thrown into the lake of fire…so it even seems like death and hades are different from eachother….I think the lake of fire is hell and that is described as the final second death and I don’t know if that death includes a resurrected body spirit and soul that will be around to be tortured for all eternity in that lake or if it gets snuffed out. Snuffing out part doesn’t seem so bad. Who knows. At any rate, I think that Gahenna is a pretty good description of a terrible place. It is like the dead animal pit at the dump.

        Like

      • I don’t know if there is anything ”wrong” with Wally. He has said he is a Young Earth Creationist, thus he believes in a literal understanding of the bible.

        All you are doing is offering Christian explanations to justify the doctrine you believe.
        There is no eternal torture chamber/hell as fundamentalist Christians believe. It is a literary construct . Fiction in other words.

        What the video shows is similar to what is taught by fundamentals Christians.

        Is this what you TRULY believe/think should be taught to kids?

        Liked by 1 person

      • dawnmarie says:

        So you don’t like Wally because of what he believes. Okay. You think literal creation is delusional as well as the bible. Okay.

        Anyway, the conversation has run the course a few times and not getting anywhere but derailing the original post with the question….why do people think Genesis is literal.

        I will end by my own BELIEF to answer the question. People read it literally because they do. People read it allegorically because they do, people read it as both, because they do. It is a debate because it is a debate and probably always will be until God clarifies it for us, if we even care by then. I take it as both, literal with deeper spiritual truths and types. Am I right, I don’t KNOW…

        Like

      • So you don’t like Wally because of what he believes.

        Wrong. I don’t like that Wally proselytizes what he believes.

        Okay. You think literal creation is delusional as well as the bible.

        No, I think belief in a literal creation is delusional.

        Excellent!. That is an honest comment to end with. Good for you.

        Like

      • dawnmarie says:

        I just finished that video. Who’s picture is behind it? What network is this? Puritan…religion, doctrine of men. Certain men also claim to be God’s representative on Earth, here in the place of Christ as the spiritual teacher and leader. Some even claims to forgive sins. Doctrine of men. Absolutely there is truth in some of the doctrine of men, but just as there are lies in every part of our lives, there are lies in religion. Horrible lies. People use God as a way to well, justify things that shouldn’t even be thought about. People use science and politics in the same way. It really is disgusting IMO. Jesus warned us about that. He said, follow Him. He did not say follow John Calvin. God says He shows us the difference between Him and people’s interpretation of Him. He puts His spirit in us to help us see the difference. I do think that sincere followers of Jesus Christ are guilty of zeal without knowledge but I also think there are lots of posers. It is a mixed bag. Everything is a mixed bag. That is why the world is so dangerous. We have to trust people, and to do that and not go crazy, we ingest lies as well. I do not believe children go to hell just because of Adam. I believe all men are destroyed and die because of their own sin. I was not taught that and I do not see anything that causes me to believe that men die the second death for someone else’s sin. It is said that each is judged according their deeds, not according to Adams deed. I don’t know at what age God hold the child accountable for answering Him when He calls, but a child can understand the idea of a creator who made them and has a place prepared for them if they want it.

        Like


      • I do not believe children go to hell just because of Adam. I believe all men are destroyed and die because of their own sin.

        Excellent. So we have at least found a point of common ground: the fallacious doctrine of Original Sin.
        Perhaps you would like to explain (to Wally, for example) why this doctrine is nonsense?
        All men die. Yes.

        ‘’….a child can understand the idea of a creator who made them and has a place prepared for them if they want it.

        They will accept this if it is indoctrinated into them. It is abuse. Many reject it as they grow older. Sadly, many do not.

        Liked by 1 person

  6. dawnmarie says:

    Lots of typos. Do you not take on faith your belief in science and believe what the people in authority tell you and don’t we all have things that we take on faith?

    Liked by 2 people

  7. I’ve always read it as somewhat allegorical, if that’s enough of a waffle. It reads too much like a story used to reveal complexities in a simplistic manner, not intending to be a science or biology textbook. At the same time, similar to the story of Jonah, I believe is a revelation of truth. Whether Jonah was actually swallowed by a whale or whether it represents resistance to God, it makes no difference to me, because in either case, I look for the truth And meaning intended to be revealed. Whether it is literal or allegorical or poetic, it was intended as revelation of truth.

    Liked by 3 people

  8. Lynn, I am quite sorry, as I appear to have drug some undesirable sorts over to your blog. Ark used to be a regular visitor at mine until he was basically banned for his bullying tactics, which I see he is employing now with one of your visitors. Although the visitor seems to be doing just fine.

    I don’t engage Ark anymore at my blog because of his relentless bullying, and I won’t engage him on yours either, because I don’t want to make a rather nice place, that being your blog, into a quagmire of strife and ugliness.

    Just FYI for all believers on this blog. Ark’s agenda is not an even, adult exchange of ideas among reasonable people. Ark is an atheist evangelist, with the state agenda of “deconverting” Christians whenever he sees what he thinks might be an opportunity.

    Liked by 3 people

    • Only quite sorry, Wally? Why on earth for? We are all adults and surely every view deserves to be heard?

      Unlike yourself, I do not consider anyone will burn in Hell for eternity for not believing in the character, Jesus of Nazareth.
      Nor do I believe this character had to be part of a barbaric disgusting blood sacrifice simply to make you feel better about yourself – or feel eternally guilty, whatever the case may be.
      Neither do I teach children such heinous stories and claim they are truth.
      I do not lie to children or mislead them with fantastic tales that dinosaurs lived alongside human beings or that the entire secular archaeological, geological and scholarly corpus is wrong and the earth is only 6000 years old.
      And I do not each the evolution is a lie.

      And you know what, Wally? As much as it galls you to read, my children are better, more-rounded and well balanced people than the average religiously indoctrinated child.
      They have no feelings of being sinners, or that ”Jesus” is watching them, or some barbaric literary monster called Yahweh is waiting to sling them in a fiery pit for being bad.

      And as you never believe what I say, ask any Christian convert . Mike, f0r example, will tell you the truth as he has been on both sides of the fence.

      The Scopes trial is over, Wally. Accept it.

      Like

  9. I have always found it fascinating that people will argue to the point of spilling blood over things that they cannot prove. Many sides do this over and over throughout history. There is evidence.

    Truly, it must not be the subject that is so offensive, but the character of the debaters.

    I have my beliefs, and they harm no one. Say what you will.

    Liked by 2 people

    • In general I would agree.

      However, ISIS, for example, also have their beliefs, based on their particular brand of god-belief.
      The early Christian church also had their beliefs which included the Crusades and colonialism and slavery and modern fundamentalist Christianity ( people like Wally) also has its beliefs that includes a literal understanding of the bible which it indoctrinates into children.

      Do you truly believe society at large benefits from theological doctrine where children are taught to accept a global flood, a literal Adam and Eve and that they are sinners from birth?
      That is was right that god enacted numerous examples of genocide?

      Or do you believe it would be better to raise children to exercise empathy and critical thinking?

      Like

      • Valid questions.

        I wear no organizational religious labels. What is your point? Are you making your decisions about God based on those who attend churches and wear labels and abide by rigid rules? I pray not, friend! Do your research on the term “Christian” and you’ll find that the odds of Jesus and his disciples using that term as identifiers for themselves would be quite low.

        I do believe in a Creator and I do believe that some parts of the Bible can be taken literally. The teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, for example. I do not, however, believe in the young earth theory of creation.

        I won’t debate you about the global flood or Adam and Eve because how could I? I wasn’t there; I don’t know. Do you know? I also never claimed that our lineage originated 100% from Adam and Eve if they were real individuals. Once again, what a fool I would be to stand on my soapbox and say about this: “This is, and nothing more!” As for being “sinners from birth,” I cannot speak for anyone else; I can only tell you that I was. 😉

        You’re spot on with the teaching of our kids about empathy and critical thinking. That’s good stuff, right there. However, critical thinking, in my perception, is not bound by the material. I have found something quite beautiful and quenching outside of that parameter. Shall I not share my revelations with those whom I love? I teach my children to accept what they choose to and to always examine the evidence, but they are free to make their own spiritual decisions; freedom is what it’s about. However, I teach them against believing that they are above changing their minds. Believing that you have attained the ultimate understanding of the Mysteries is a trap. However, the one who understands only a small portion would understand that its entirety cannot be encapsulated in our mortal minds.

        Btw, I used to be really hung up on how this supposed “God of love” could have been so responsible for the many terrible things written in the OT. I can tell you, but of course, I already know that this is one of those things that can’t just be told; you have to discover it on your own personal level, but I will tell you anyway in the hopes of it getting you looking in a different direction: that was NOT God. Keep seeking.

        Lastly, with respect and humility, these are only my beliefs. But, they resonate with me as a strong foundation that never decays, and my beliefs have most certainly evolved since my spiritual birth. I suspect they will be somewhat different tomorrow. 🙂

        Peace.

        Like

      • Are you making your decisions about God based on those who attend churches and wear labels and abide by rigid rules?

        Based on the evidence presented so far I hold no beliefs in the veracity of gods. Not yours, or anyone else’s.

        <blockquote …the odds of Jesus and his disciples using that term (Christian) as identifiers for themselves would be quite low.
        Zero, in fact. The character, Jesus of Nazareth was an Aramaic speaking Jew as were his disciples. The ”label” came later. Considerably later.

        As for being “sinners from birth,” I cannot speak for anyone else; I can only tell you that I was.😉

        Really? How do you know? Did your god whisper this information in your ear while you were in the womb or immediately you exited your mother. Or did someone pin a note to your nappy: ”Herewith is a Vile Sinner. Please ensure the child receives salvation at the earliest possible time. Thanking you in advance. The Midwife.”

        Shall I not share my revelations with those whom I love?

        Would you like a continual sermon on my revelation and why I love Liverpool Football club? I guarantee mine will make more sense, even if you hate Liverpool or football.

        Btw, I used to be really hung up on how this supposed “God of love” could have been so responsible for the many terrible things written in the OT.

        Fortunately for all of us, neither scenario has any veracity whatsoever, as the bible is simply historical fiction. You can breathe a sigh of relief on that score.

        Lastly, with respect and humility, these are only my beliefs. But, they resonate with me as a strong foundation that never decays, and my beliefs have most certainly evolved since my spiritual birth. I suspect they will be somewhat different tomorrow.

        I am happy for you that they are your beliefs. I also hope that tomorrow they will be different.
        Peace 2.

        Like

      • I won’t debate you about the global flood or Adam and Eve because how could I? I wasn’t there; I don’t know. Do you know?

        No one was there as it is a piece of fiction.
        Although the story has its roots in the Epic of Gilgamesh, which is loosely based on a local Mesopotamian flood.
        Happy to provide historical data if you would like to see where the Israelites got their story from? Only if you are really interested in the truth behind the biblical tale? Let me know, okay?

        Like

      • SOME of the teachings of Jesus can be taken as literal, I meant to say.

        If we assume that the gospels are accurate. I tend not to think so.
        But that’s just my view.

        Like

      • Really? How do you know? Did your god whisper this information in your ear while you were in the womb or immediately you exited your mother. Or did someone pin a note to your nappy: ”Herewith is a Vile Sinner. Please ensure the child receives salvation at the earliest possible time. Thanking you in advance. The Midwife.”

        No, I merely acknowledged my lineage. Nothing that has happened here, though, made me a sinner. I am a sinner as a result of what happened before. Also, I’m sure you remember seeing the cartoons with the angel on one shoulder and the devil on the other. It’s actually quite similar to that in an indirect kind of way, minus the illusory phantasmagoria mankind has attributed to it, of course. I fear that is what so many fall victim to. Thus, when I see with my own eyes the evil that many members of mankind have done and are doing and will continue doing, Then I conclude that evil may potentially arise from any man, woman, or child. I did not find my beliefs by faith alone. I found them through ongoing investigation and NEVER closing the door to my mind. When I say to you that I was born a sinner, I refer to my spiritual birth. Before then, I was not fully aware of what sin was, just as you are not now.

        Would you like a continual sermon on my revelation and why I love Liverpool Football club? I guarantee mine will make more sense, even if you hate Liverpool or football.

        Are you going to force me to listen to your sports distractions with a gun to my head or somethin’? You preach whatever you want, neighbor; you have the freedom to share your opinions, and I have the freedom to peruse them, or not. You began this dialogue with me; not vice versa.

        Fortunately for all of us, neither scenario has any veracity whatsoever, as the bible is simply historical fiction. You can breathe a sigh of relief on that score.

        If that is what you wish to believe; I’m really quite okay with that, but why do you try to bait me into a war of opinions? You are the guilty party here who is attempting to force opinions. I am only defending myself against your words. Do you think I am trying to best you in this discussion for vain glory? If I have caused you harm, then show me how I hurt you so I can beg your forgiveness, but if I have not harmed you, then why do you attack with such a condescending words? Think really hard on that last question. It is not a question of exteriors.

        I am happy for you that they are your beliefs. I also hope that tomorrow they will be different.

        Thank you for your wishes. 🙂 They did change, as I suspect they will again tomorrow. I hope your beliefs are also undergoing constant growth. Stagnancy can become a great pitfall. It goes against the nature of evolution, yes?

        No one was there as it is a piece of fiction.
        Although the story has its roots in the Epic of Gilgamesh, which is loosely based on a local Mesopotamian flood.
        Happy to provide historical data if you would like to see where the Israelites got their story from? Only if you are really interested in the truth behind the biblical tale? Let me know, okay?

        First, you’re only repeating your opinion again. Second, you’re only listing one source where a potentially devastating flood of old may have originated when there are, in fact, many. Do not believe you can float non-disclosure past me; I’ve read much of the evidence already. You should stop stereotyping me, friend. 🙂 Third, did you see the part where I wrote I wouldn’t debate the truth of those items because I do not know? Because I was not there? Because you were not there? Why are you still ranting on about it? Is there wax in your ears? A beam in your eye? Stone around your heart? Did I say I was right and you were wrong? Perhaps before manufacturing your next witty retort, you should spend some time truly examining your own character? I wonder, do you have friends or family who believe otherwise than yourself, and if so, do you speak to them the same way? Why does the mere IDEA of having a spiritual Father arouse such negative emotions in you?

        On an indirectly related note, I really enjoyed Graham Hancock’s Magicians of the Gods, and I think you would too if you haven’t already read it. The author does not seem to present any religious biases, fyi. If you have any literature you think I would enjoy, please don’t refrain from telling me about it. I have a lengthy reading queue, but if it looks potentially truthful or entertaining, I’ll squeeze it in somewhere. Let me know, okay? 😉

        Lastly, just as these types of discussions usually go, it has strayed beyond the bounds of the original topic. And this is not even my page. My apologies to Lynn for this. I will cease my side of this discussion here. I am sure that you, Arkenaten, will have a response, but if you desire any more of my opinions, which I find unlikely, show me how I can privately give you my email address, or give me yours. Let us see if the words change when there is no other audience to view them.

        Farewell, friend; maybe for forever.

        Like

      • We are communicating on an open forum. A question was posed by Lynn and one can presume she welcomed input and interaction.
        As this topic encompasses a huge spectrum of interconnected material it is quite natural that tangents will occur.
        Providing they stay within the general theme then I see no problem.

        If Lynn does have a problem then I apologise up front.

        You cannot be so naive as to believe you would not be stereotyped if you use an asinine phrase such as ”Were you there?”

        We are not children and that type of Ken Ham-response is somewhat disingenuous and is suggestive of one who may be a science -denier.

        The evidence is in on the Noah’s Global Flood and whether you are aware or acknowledge the history behind the biblical fable is immaterial to the evidence that soundly refutes it.

        The same goes for Adam and Eve and the rest of the Pentateuch. It is simply Historical Fiction.
        There was no flood, no Exodus as described and no conquest.
        Evidence is often inconvenient to personal beliefs especially when they encompass religion and supposed inspired/innerent religious texts.

        With regards your ”sin”.
        For the record, the doctrine of Original Sin is a Christian construct.
        It does not feature in Judaism.
        Feel free to do the research. Start with Judaism.
        And Jesus was a Jew and he never taught it.

        The words would not change in the least. If you feel we are impinging on Lynn’s hospitality, feel free to visit my blog and write whatever you wish.

        Regards.
        Ark.

        Like

      • I may not comment on all the post in this forum; however, I am reading them. I am fine with the discussions and learning why people believe in certain things.

        I only ask that everyone act civilized and not start acting like a bunch of children on a playground trying to bully someone into changing their belief system.

        Thanks to everyone that has participated in this blog discussion.

        Liked by 2 people

      • It is fascinating is it not? Thanks for allowing the interaction to wend where it will.
        Coming from a very open/loose religious (Christian) environment I was truly flabbergasted to encounter people who actually believe in a literal interpretation of the bible, especially Genesis. And to run into people who actively deny evolution was staggering. Initially, I truly thought the person I first encountered was pulling my leg, never having come across the American-Style evangelist before I began blogging.

        Now I know better.
        That an adult can accept we have the technology to produce vaccines, perform organ transplants,and send craft and men to space to name the most minuscule of what scientific human endeavour has achieved so far and yet this individual will deny the same science that demonstrates evolution is fact is something I cannot understand for the life of me.

        Like

  10. To those who resort to bulling techniques, name calling, or vulgar language in an attempt to prove a point – your behavior will convince no one and makes it appear that you are unable to have a rational conversation. There are better ways to get your point across to your audience.

    Liked by 4 people

  11. dawnmarie says:

    Sounds like you don’t know Wally either. Yes, got it. Jesus, hell, God, child abuse. With that, I am off to paint. Nice conversation. Thanks Ark.

    Like

    • Well, Dawn, I am pretty much with you here. I am, in fact, a..gasp…fundamentalist!!! I also am quite the literalist….again gasp! I even believe that, eventually we all will sin because our nature. I even believe that the punishment for that, unforgiven, will be eternal separation from God in a place called Hell. Like you, I surely don’t have all of the answers on exactly what that will mean for all people. I have thoughts, but not necessarily answers.

      In reference to the specific concern, as you stated, at some point we do become accountable. Those who are not capable of accountability will not be held accountable. That would include children of some undetermined age, which probably varies. God knows the heart, not us.

      Do I teach children every chance I get? I surely do and am not embarrassed or ashamed of that, because eventually they will be accountable for their decision, and I want all the company I can get in heaven.

      Heck, it would tickle me pink to see my pal Ark there someday.

      Liked by 1 person

      • dawnmarie says:

        Fundamentalist! Oh no!!!!!! Gasp and screech and hide behind the couch! Yes, the term has been a bad word for a while…oh well. I get accused of that myself and well…okay.

        Yes. It would make sense to me that God knows and He judges rightly even when it comes to children.

        Liked by 1 person

  12. Hi lynn-
    You ask a fair question at the head of the page. If I may.

    When the Jews in the days of the Lord had issues with scripture, the reliability of the text, the Old Testament that is, was not an issue. The Jews were abraded for their alleged superior interpretation of scripture, which the Lord pointed out, was wrong.

    Moses lived, no problem. Abraham lived, no problem. God made great whales for the oceans as detailed in Genesis. No problem. Or is it? Of course He made them, as the greatest playgrounds needed the greatest of guests.

    God made male and female. He made the dove, the eagle. Literal and true. So His word is verifiable and reliable, so that when He tells us the ordinances of the sun and moon will not depart, as proof as His concern and perpetual care for Israel we can take that to the bank also.

    In your very post here, you notice the assaults on scripture, as if God and His word cannot be trusted. Same old story: ‘Hath God said?’ Uh yeah, He has said; His word is good, as a matter of fact, it is very good.

    And btw, so tersely we read in its beauty: He made the stars also. The context suggests literal or figurative, and is used as a means of literature for thousands of years. When the Lord says He is the door, that is obviously figurative; the lamb of God, both figurative and literal, but Genesis reveals itself and is confirmed throughout the entire book.

    Liked by 1 person

  13. Hey Lynn

    Fellow named ColorStorm from The Lion’s Den just gave me a holler. Says he commented but it appears to have gone to trash or spam. If you fish him out, he’s one of the good guys, I promise.

    🙂

    Liked by 1 person

    • So thoughtful of you, Wally, looking out for a fellow young earth creationist fundamentalist who will, undoubtedly, have only nice things to say about those people who happen to side with the majority of humans on Planet Earth who believe in evolution.

      Like

      • That’s your trouble ark You put words in people’s mouths. you have NEVER heard me defend the age of the earth. I was not there the first day. Neither were you and your friends. and please do not cry ‘dating’ and ‘proof,’ lest your 14.3 billion years be challenged and disagreed upon by others who prove 14.4 billion, or 13.9 billion, or 13.2 billion. Quite a discrepancy between the so called experts. Get the point?

        So if you are so wrong about something so simple as assuming you have heard me say ‘how old is the earth…………..’ perhaps you are a bit careless as to everything else that follows.

        But simply, Genesis can be trusted. It took God no more effort to create the human heart than it did for Him to create the stars above. Case closed.

        Like

      • I put my trust in secular science. It says theEarth is 4.54 billion years old, not 14.3 billion.
        Maybe you read different scientists than I do?

        Genesis is historical fiction, and your absurd rhetoric only holds water with the indoctrinated.

        Like

      • Quite interesting to measure time before there was a measurement for time…….

        God is the ultimately Timekeeper, and I can assure you, your clock is broken.

        Thus do the facts of common sense indict your so called learning.

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      • If you are unaware how the age opf the earth is determined then I sugesat you do some basic research.
        While I am perfectly willing to help out anyone wh has a genuine interest in this subject I feel to try an educate one as intransigent as you, Colorstorm would merely make my teeth hurt.
        Besides, as much as there may be some quite devout Christians on this thread and also others reading along, I truly doubt very few deny evolution and consider we live on a 6000 year old earth where dinosaurs once roamed with humans and Noah actually brought a select few species of flora and fauna onto a wooden ark.

        Most people have moved on from such archaic thought and consider such stories as simply allegorical or myth.
        That you consider these events historical and accurate is a fault of your cognitive abilities due to indoctrination.

        Like

      • Your seeds of doubt and despair will never find good root in a heart stayed on the truth of God and His creation.

        Talk about stubborn! Maybe you can grab a few of your hero friends and go into the lab and improve upon the design of the human eye, the brain, the blood, the limbs, or here’s an easier one: the conscience.

        Yeah, go ahead, create the conscience, using nothing……………

        God is ! His word is good! Rebellion is not becoming to humans. It is rather unattractive.

        Genesis is very good. And no, I’m not talking about P. Gabriel.

        Like

      • Odd….as ColorStorm just said…you’ve never heard me attach an age to the earth

        Might I suggest you read some on manners and how to conduct yourself in a persons home?

        Your welcome here has been very gracious and I won’t be part of you dragging this rather nice blog into the toilet

        Peace

        Like

      • I don’t engage Ark anymore at my blog because of his relentless bullying, and I won’t engage him on yours either,

        Well, that’s one lie. There’s your ego playing up again Wally.

        ….you’ve never heard me attach an age to the earth

        You have openly stated you are a Young Earth Creationist.

        I am one of those “fundamentalists”
        I happen to believe creation happened just as described in Genesis.

        YECs believe the age of the Earth to be between 6 – 10,000 years old. So, while technically you may be correct in that you have not put a specific age down on” paper” in discussion with me, you either follow the YEC doctrine or you are being disingenuous.
        Which is it, Wally?

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      • Excellent! Glad we sorted that out.

        But just so we can set the record straight, Wally, and for the benefit of those reading along just how old do you believe the earth to be?
        More or less. No exact figure required.

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  14. I didn’t read ALL of the above comments, particularly after they deteriorated so fully. Now I remember why I am agnostic. I haven’t a clue about what comes after life – never been there.

    As for how it all came about . . . haven’t a clue. Every iteration of “the book” is an interpretation by the current writer. Did you ever play “Gossip” as a kid? I can only imagine what has happened over the how many thousands of years?

    Clearly I am no scholar – just my own thoughts. It is of absolutely no interest to me what anyone else believes. Interesting that those who believe this or that are so passionate about those beliefs.

    Liked by 1 person

  15. People should google “what do Jews believe about Genesis?” They will find that many Jewish scholars believe that the universe may be billions of years old . They see the Genesis account not as the creation of the universe but the “beginning” of the Jewish experience with God. It is a joke that literalists and fundamentalists are telling Jews what their own Torah means.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Hi carl-

      Just a little housecleaning. The Genesis account does not need the support of Jews to make it credible.

      It stands fine and uncontested whether they believe it or not. If they believe it fine, but not believing the Genesis narrative hardly makes the scriptures lacking in any regard.

      And for what it’s worth, the Jews have had a long history or stubbornness and rebellion; after all, they did in fact reject the Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ, which the Old Testament AND Genesis clearly spoke of. So your gripe is faulty on many fronts.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Yes, Jesus constantly refers to the OT and how He fulfilled prophecy of OT which Jews rejected. I agree with your ” but not believing the Genesis narrative hardly makes the scriptures lacking in any regard.” Believing or not believing in Genesis creation does not reduce or disqualify one from being a practicing Jew or Christian (which fundamentalists vehemently disagree). I do think that Genesis contains a great deal of valuable and legitimate historical information, geographical and social anthropological information besides Judaism itself, God’s revelation, and two-way embrace. So I am not dismissive of the OT. With Adam and Eve stuff, well all ancient cultures have their ethos and cosmology and cultural foundations with many archetypes shared by those cultures. And it does not matter, I suppose, whether A and E stuff is myth or fact, the story explains our separation from the creator and the need for redemption(reconnection) through Christ’s most generous invitation.

        ColorStorm, I have no gripes. I try so very hard to refine my understandings and the disagreements by commenters here represent 2,000 years of discernment on the matter that is still evaluated today as evidenced here. I do not need myths or miracles to believe in the message of Jesus. His words speak for themselves.

        Presently, I have begun to hand write the New Testament. I try to do one or two pages a day. Sometimes I may skip a day or two. I have finished Mathew, Mark, Luke and am halfway through John.So my integration with scripture is strong and ongoing. I don’t think science stuff conflicts in any way with Jesus stuff. We cannot prove religion with science or disprove science with religion. Jesus says “my kingdom is not of this world”. So the science stuff and the faith stuff are on two different and separate planes and they do not intersect. Blessings…

        Liked by 1 person

      • Good enough carl. But I do think science and ‘religion’ most certainly co-exist. As long as………….

        If ‘in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth,’ then that is a statement of science, truth, and faith.

        2 + 2 equals four is just as scientific, truthful, and relies on faith just the same.

        Truth is consistent wherever it is found. The ‘gripes’ I speak of are offered by any who think there is somehow defects in Genesis.

        There are none. The creation of man is equally believable as the temple of Solomon, as the fields of Ruth, as ‘Behold the man!’ by Pilate, as the gold in the earth made by the same Creator, as described in Genesis.

        I think there is an element of fear that people will not release, in thinking it is somehow not ‘intelligent’ to believe God’s account of His own creation.

        It is most certainly intelligent, and foolish to believe otherwise. And for what it’s worth, I’ll borrow my own thought: it is much easier to believe that the scriptures are true, than to believe a man will live to see tomorrow.

        And good stuff too writing the NT.

        Liked by 1 person

      • @Colorstorm.

        Is it any wonder Creationism is forbidden from being taught in state schools?

        Truly,with these sort of fundamentalist beliefs and the desire to proselytize you should not be allowed access to children.

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  16. Ah,much in common. I attend Faith Presbyterian Church in Greensboro, North Carolina. As I am a Mason also, well, King Solomon’s Temple is one of our “foundations” of the builder’s craft. No argument there. We refer to God as God and also the Grand Architect of the Universe.

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  17. kmabarrett says:

    Lynn,
    Your question is quite simply answered: It (Genesis) is believed by some as literal because mythology pre-dates the scientific method as a method for explaining the universe. Just as significantly, it (myth / faith) has been shown to “work” in moving forward the progress of humankind. We are, after all, the predominant sentient species on the planet. It therefore has a genetic component (natural selection) going for it which the scientific method probably has not yet had time to establish / replace.

    Scientifically speaking, is it “possible” the universe could have been created by some all-powerful being “exactly” as described in Genesis? It is possible. Is it there any physical evidence it was? No. But, as they say in many of the physical sciences, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Is it “likely”, Genesis is literally accurate? No. It simply is not probable the universe was created the way Genesis describes. We have too much scientifically verifiable data available which implies Genesis is not an accurate description of literal creation.

    Does this conflict between scientific evidence and a literal interpretation of Genesis mean “faith” in God (or “something else”) is misplaced or wrong. No. At least it does not for me. The scientific model can only answer questions which fit its model. Faith and God and the reasons for the creation of this universe are not subject to the scientific model. With no evidence or means of testing faith is beyond the reach of science. They are simply different models for explaining the universe.

    Kevin

    Liked by 1 person

  18. Wow, that’s a long discussion! 🙂

    I don’t think I have anything new to offer here, but if we take literalism out of the equation, we leave no firm foundation in place for people who want that stability – in place of the ever-evolving world-view that science seems to offer..

    Like

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